BOOKED: I’m Finally Visiting Bhutan!

A couple of weeks ago I shared 10 places I’m hoping to visit in 2017, and at the very top of that list was Bhutan. I’ve heard amazing things about Bhutan from those who have visited, and based on what I’ve heard it’s still not a place overrun by tourists.

My destination interests have also largely shifted from cities to nature, and it seems like Bhutan is great in that regard. To top it all off, Le Meridien has opened two hotels in Bhutan in the past couple of years (one in Paro and one in Thimphu), and they both look gorgeous. So Bhutan is now a destination that’s accessible on points.

Le-Meridien-Paro
Le Meridien Paro

Bhutan isn’t an easy place to fly to

One of the only ways to fly to Paro commercially is on Druk Air, which is the national airline of Bhutan.

Paro is one of the most challenging airports in the world to fly to, and there are only a couple dozen pilots in the world who are trained to land there. So you have to book a Druk Air ticket to get there.

Druk Air sells out in advance, and it’s not cheap either. For example, a roundtrip ticket from Kathmandu to Paro will cost you ~$450 in economy, even though it’s just an hour flight.

Oh, and their website is absolutely horrible. Given how many days were sold out I had to do a couple of dozen searches to find the right flight for me, and after doing a few searches, they started making me complete those CAPTCHA things, which I’m horrible at. These were the especially annoying ones with pictures, where there’s no clear right or wrong answer (“pick the pictures with a storefront” — maybe I’m too technical, but how is that really defined?). 😉

Eventually I found flights that worked, and tried to book them. I got through the booking process, and then was sent to a third party website for payment of the tickets. Then I was redirected to Druk Air’s website, which said that my ticket was confirmed, while Ford’s wasn’t. The message said to call Druk Air’s call center, though they’re only open during very limited hours.

I was worried, since that was the last seat on the flight, and also there were only a couple of rooms left at our hotel. So eventually I stayed up late and called Druk Air during their business hours, which was an experience as well.

It literally felt like calling someone at their house. They just answer the phone with “hello?”

“Yes, is this Druk Air?”

“Can I put you on hold?”

“Okay…”

Even using Google Voice, a call to Bhutan is 18 cents per minute. That’s not going to break the bank, but it’s also the most expensive call I’ve ever made through Google Voice.

After being on hold the guy gave me a different number to call. I called that number, and the guy told me to call a different number. I called that other number, and that lady told me to call her back in five minutes. I called her back in 10 minutes, and then she told me to email her.

Eventually everything was booked, but boy was it an adventure. If only Druk Air would allow bookings through online travel agencies…

Visiting Bhutan isn’t cheap either!

Not only are the flights expensive and tough to book, but it’s not cheap to actually stay in Bhutan either. I managed to book the two Le Meridiens on Cash & Points rates, which is an excellent deal compared to the paid rates of ~$500 per night.

Not only that, but Bhutan tightly controls tourism and is supposedly carbon negative, which is pretty amazing. That comes at a cost, though. Per Le Meridien’s website you have to pay $175 per person per night just to visit, plus a $40 visa fee:

Per government law set by the Tourism Council of Bhutan (TCB), a tourist tariff will be levied on guests from all countries except India, Bangladesh, and the Maldives. This tariff, which is not included in the hotel’s room rates, is valid throughout the year.

This mandatory tourist tariff can be arranged through the hotel’s partnered travel agency at the following discounted rates:

  •  A booking for one guest: 180 USD per person per night
  •  A booking for two guests: 175 USD per person per night
  •  A booking for three or more guests: 170 USD per person per night
  •  There is no fee for children below the age of 5. There is a 150 USD fee for children 6 to 12 years of age.

In addition, a one-time visa fee of 40 USD per person will also be levied.

The tourist tariff offered includes the following services and charges, which are handled by the hotel’s partnered travel agency:

  • Roundtrip airport transfer
  • Daily sightseeing with an English-speaking guide
  • All applicable government taxes
  • All museum and monument fees

However, at least it includes quite a bit of stuff. Like I said, it’s expensive, but at the same time I have a lot of respect for how they’re trying to preserve their country.

Le-Meridien
Le Meridien Thimphu

Bottom line

I’m really excited to visit Bhutan, and am happy I got the tough stuff nailed down (the flights to Bhutan, and the hotels once there). We’ll be flying from Kathmandu to Paro, and will be returning from Paro to Dhaka (that’s all that was available). I’m actually looking forward to visiting Nepal and Bangladesh as well.

Now the adventure starts of planning the flights to get to Kathmandu and from Dhaka. I’m excited, as this should give me the opportunity to try some new airlines — we won’t be taking Emirates or Etihad for this trip! Instead I’m thinking more along the lines of Kuwait Airways, Biman Bangladesh, etc.

For anyone who has been to Bhutan, any tips of things to know before visiting?

Comments

  1. Sounds amazing. I’ve been to Nepal and Bangladesh, but it’ll be wonderful seeing new pictures and your take on everything. Bhutan will be a new experience for just about everyone I imagine. Congratulations! I can’t wait for it to begin.

  2. Punakha is a long winding road from Thimphu, but its really worth it. Absolutely beautiful.

    I used the tour agency lined up by LM Thimphu (included in your daily fee, which also comes with a driver). The guides will look to fill your day from early to late – in my case to the point that I just needed to relax. As you’re not on a group tour, don’t hesitate to ‘take control’ and tell them to slow it down. (You might want to ensure that the two hotels, apparently separately owned, have you with the same company the whole time).

    You’ll notice the altitude. Take stairs etc a bit slowly, particularly your first day.

    Don’t be afraid of the dogs in Thimphu, but they do bark at night. Think about bringing earplugs. There a cool artist-run studio not too far from LM Thimphu – its great.

    The hotel in Paro is near the highway just outside Paro town – it looks great, but you’ll be more ‘stuck’ there without your guide/driver. Thimphu is in the city, so it’ll be easier to leave the hotel for dinner etc.

    Have a wonderful time! When are you going?

  3. Awesome! When I booked I wasn’t able to get the tickets to book. It kept running out of time. So I just had aman do it with the surcharge.

    Two things about the flight:

    1. Left side of plane from Ktm to see Everest.
    2. Business class was like 50 or a100 more per flight, so no brainer.

    And 3. Children seats, like under 12, are 50% off or so.

  4. Agree with the earlier commenter who suggested trying to go further east than Thimphu (i.e. Punahka). If you get car sick easily bring ginger chews or Dramamine. You may want to consider doing an overnight trek in paro and going down to the tigers nest (thus beating the crowds).

  5. Paro and Thimphu are barely scratching Bhutan’s surface. Going farther east is where things get really interesting, but the hotels are more rustic.

    It’s interesting that they have a discounted tariff, but I guess that accounts for the fact you are not staying at one of the tourist class hotels, but are paying for your own more expensive hotel. As a solo traveler it was a great bargain when I went a few years ago since I had my own vehicle/driver/guide and hotels that would have essentially cost double for two people.

    I was never able to really adjust to the altitude so climbing and hiking was extremely difficult.

    Not sure I would be excited about Dhaka. Be careful there.

  6. I second the comment about taking earplugs!

    I did Bhutan last year and it was definitely the most unique trip I’ve taken. I’m sure the Le Meridien is lovely but I would advise you to keep your expectations low when it comes to service, food and facilities. No one visits Bhutan for the hotels; people are there for the unique culture and unspoilt landscape. Western style hotels and service is – literally – a foreign concept, and I don’t think even Le Meridien can change that instantly. None of this is a criticism of the country – just my opinion based on staying in six hotels across the country last year. It was still an utterly incredible trip, and the interesting but very basic hotels and often terrible food was all part of the experience!

    Also, it’s worth getting out of Paro and Thimpu to see the rest of the country. Punakha is great and is probably the easiest place to get to if you don’t have too much time.

    I am very jealous and look forward to seeing what you think of it!

  7. Hi Ben,
    Maybe try Nepal Airlines to travel to Kathmandu. Not the best airline but it will be an experience.

  8. Very excited for your trip and I really hope you don’t spend much time reviewing the hotels but really go out to explore the place. I also hope you explore Dhaka and Katmandu.

    “Druk Air sells out in advance, and it’s not cheap either. For example, a roundtrip ticket from Kathmandu to Paro will cost you ~$450 in economy, even though it’s just an hour flight.” Funny that you say that is expensive. I pay $1,200 to fly MSP to OMA on Delta and that is only 40 minutes. 🙁

  9. Really excited to hear you’re going! Remember to tell us some about the trip itself. Don’t let the negative Nancies convince you that your opinions on the destinations themselves aren’t worthwhile. I’d love to hear your impressions on all three countries

  10. Great trip, go for it!
    But talking about scary airports, Paro might be a piece of cake compared to Lukla in the Himalayas.
    Tons of videos out there like this one:
    https://youtu.be/IZYPuPCXv8s

    The runway is lot steeper than it appears in video, believe me…… 🙂 And very, very short!

  11. my parents were in Bhutan last year with an organised ornithology(!) trip, and loved the country and the people. enjoy!

  12. What a great trip plan! But this time Lucky, please get out there and see the wonderful sights, taste the street food, meet the locals and spend less time reviewing the hotel VIP lounge, gym, welcome amenity, toiletries etc. Not that those aren’t all interesting things to review, if you’re in Dallas or Cleveland. But Bhutan sounds like an exotic place and really worth exploring! Do an Anthony Bourdain this time.

  13. For Kathmandu, if you’re looking for a Points stay there is the Hyatt Regency but it is some way out of town and you’ll need a car to get around as public transport is non-existent and taxis are horrible.

    Depending on when you’re going there is an Aloft opening this year. Location is right in the heart of town, close to the (former Royal Palace) and Thamel + walkable to a lot of places although bring a mask as air pollution is bad.

    If you’re looking for any recommendations in KTM let me know.

  14. The best season is Oct-Dec where you get mosly clear views of the Himalayas. Jan-Mar will also be good but my be hazy. Apr-Sep will receive rains – a lot especially Jun-Aug and will have a very limited chance to enjoy the peaks.

    On KTM-PBH flight, you’ll fly close to all top 5 peaks in the world except one. Not just the Everest but Kanchenjunga is also a grand holy mountain by the locals.

  15. @FE: There was a time when the Lukla runway was just gravel. It was paved the year after we visited.

    Another, not scary, but interesting landing is Leh. It’s a jet plane but it maneuvers around the valleys with mountains on all sides to get to the airstrip.

  16. @Lucky – Why not do the SQ nonstop from SFO in the new Biz seats since you haven’t reviewed them, and then take SilkAir up to Kathmandu. (Would also recommend you spend a few days in Kathmandu!).

    Just a thought.

  17. I was looking online and I found out that Jet Airways flies to Kathmandu, Maybe we could get a Jet Airways first class review.

  18. Flew Jet Airways to Kathmandu from DEL in November for a couple of nights. Jet Airways was quite good. Spent something like $7 for an extra legroom seat. Stayed at the Hyatt which was quite nice, although they turned off the cooling portion of their HVAC at night. It became warm by morning. Had a long wonderful massage at hotel for around $40 US. Departed Kathmandu around 1pm and was sheer chaos. Very crowded with few gates and some pushy airport porters. Also, kind of depressing seeing Nepal men shipping out to the middle east as laborers.

  19. Hey Ben,

    What if you could do something like JFK-ATH (air europa), ATH-RIX (airBaltic), RIX-TAS-BKK (Uzbekistan), BKK-KTM (Thai Airways) and return with DAC-LHR (Biman), LHR-KWI (Kuwait), KWI-DMM (KLM – sounds like a cool 5th freedom flight 😉 ), DMM-BEY-CDG (Middle East), and finish it off with CDG-DUB-JFK (Aer Lingus)! This incredibly crazy itinerary would check off 5 of the products that you wanted to review too!

  20. Coordinate with the travel agency is the key – you’ll need an approval in order to check in with Druk Air. The immigration agent stamps the visa upon arrival.

    Make sure you bring plenty of USD to exchange into the local currency – $100 bills get better rates than $20. The ATMs and credit cards generally do not work.

    Local merchants will accept Indian rupees as well, since their currency is tagged to rupees.

    Lastly, business class on Druk Air is not that much more expensive than Economy.

    Oh, get ready for a lot of chili peppers. And phallic symbols on buildings.

  21. Sounds quite exciting, I would really recommend getting a hotel transfer in Dhaka and maybe Uber(haven’t used it there but know its available) to get around. Pretty sure you know there are a few spg properties, while the Westin and Four points are much better located. Also as you mentioned, you tend to like nature over city – you might want to check out some of the resorts nestled in the tea gardens around Sylhet while in Bangladesh though i can’t think of one where you could redeem points, but they might offer Amex discounts. To name one I would say ‘Dusai’. Last tip- Sky Lounge, accessible by priority pass is the best one at Dhaka airport maybe followed by the Amex Lounge.

    Feel free to follow me up on those

  22. You can hub via Colombo again? Direct flights from Colombo to Katmandu a couple times a week a Nepalese airline and also Dhaka Colombo has a daily flight.

  23. Ben, you are indeed ‘Lucky’! It sounds like an amazing trip (and trip report) in the making 🙂
    safe travels

  24. Visited Bhutan on A&K tour. Beautiful country. Citizens all required to wear national costume. Bring earplugs. Dogs roam freely and bark all night. Landing in Paro thrilling. Make sure to fly to Lukla when you are in Kathmandu.

  25. Lucky indeed! My boyfriend and I visited a few years ago. Flight from KTM to Paro was the scariest experience we’ve ever had, let me tell you… But Bhutan is really a magical place. We stayed at the Taj (probably overrated, but good service). One of our most interesting trips! Enjoy!

  26. I visited Bhutan for the first time last year and even though I have been to more than 45 countries, this was the first one that I was already thinking about when I could return on the 3rd day!

    Except for regional tourists from neighboring countries, all visitors must book with a local tour guide. Mine was really nice and helpful and my tour was very good.

    I want more people to have the Bhutan experience so I have worked with my tour guide from last year to come up with a nice tour package at a reasonable price that includes many of the best features of the country, including a visit to a festival and spending serious time at an ecolodge.

    Anyone interested in seeing the itinerary for the tour can check it out here:

    https://www.facebook.com/events/1819482991632893/

    and feel free to ask me about Bhutan’s great photo opportunities.

  27. When we went to Bhutan years ago, most of the trip we stayed at the places chosen by the local guide’s company and they were very nice. For the last two nights, I wanted to try Zhiwa Ling and paid extra for it. Nothing wrong with Zhiwa Ling as such but at the end, considering the trip, it was waste of money. All the local places (that were included in the fixed daily government fee) were great (as said, you don’t go to Bhutan for the hotels) and staying at the mountains at guide’s birth home was way more interesting than any luxury hotel there.

  28. Having been to Bhutan a coupe of times the only thing I can recommend is to spend more then your usual day or two. It is a beatific country with incredibly friendly people excellent trekking to be had and just a place to be enjoyed slowly. Get out of Paro and Thimphu into the countryside

  29. went to Bhutan this past October – am surprised you didn’t just book everything (including air) with a tour operator – that way the minimum per day will include a guide and driver with your own vehicle

    we flew from DEL and were able to upgrade to the left side of the aircraft (where the mountains are, but they were mostly covered by clouds) in business class at the ticket counter – but you must pay for that with cash and the ATMs at DEL are unreliable, so bring enough rupees (can’t remember how many, but i think it was less than $200 p/p o/w, and rupees are accepted everywhere in Bhutan)

    we went to Trongsa, which was lovely but a hellacious drive – it took about 10 hours (with only a couple of short stops) to go about 120 miles/200 km! wherever you go, you definitely do not want to spend the whole time in Thimphu and Paro

    Tiger’s Nest is the peak experience in every sense – fabulous!

    the people we encountered were almost without exception very sweet kind and welcoming – it is still an unspoiled paradise with a certain charming innocence – our guide was 21 but seemed closer to 11 (aside from an incredible knowledge of Bhutanese history and culture, as well as his country’s Buddhist sites), and our driver was 28 but seemed 18 – we had the best time with them, and of course you do get close to people when you’re sharing the same vehicle for a whole week (a little too much Justin Bieber on the CD player though :-)! )

    you will have a marvelous time

  30. Ben, if you want nature, Paro and Thimphu are not your places, as they are increasingly modern and crowded towns, with a lot of tourists, hotels, hustle and bustle, and Bhutanese wearing western clothing. If you stick to redeeming points, you’ll be stuck in the bigger hotels and miss the best bits. Minimize your time in Paro in particular. Seek out central Bhutan (unless you want to do the serious Laya or Snowman treks in the north). Spend more time in places like Punahkha (agree completely with @H), Phobjikha Valley, Trongsa, and Bumthang. Punhahkha is a beautiful sub-tropical valley that grows bananas, has the most spectacular dzong (fortress), and beautiful rice fields for day walks Phobijikha is a gorgeous valley where the black cranes from Tibet winter. Great hiking, with few visitors. Trongsa has a dramatic dzong with magnificent views. Bumthang has atmospheric monasteries, great hiking, and an airport that allows flying back to Paro after driving east. I did the Aman circuit (all five lodges, as well as camping and trekking, and the money was soooo well-spent), but there are cheaper options, too, including the Uma lodges. (If you do Aman, go to Punhakha or Phobjikha (Gangtey) lodges.)

    If you do stick to Paro and Thimhphu, make sure to hike to the top of Cheri Gompa outside Thimhphu. And wherever you go, take in a tshechu, one of the traditional festivals with costumed dancers and musicians. Tiger’s Nest outside Paro is dramatic but a tourist circus.

    You need at least a week in Bhutan to get any sense of the place and get out of the population centers. Even a week will feel too short.

    When you fly from Kathmandu to Paro (I hope it’s in the morning), sit on the left side of the plane. The views of Everest are unbelievable, and as @Hiro notes the views of the other peaks are also stunning. (Same if you are flying Delhi-Kathmandu, with views of Machapuchare and the Annapurnas.) Book in biz on Druk for this reason, as you’re more likely to get a window seat and to avoid having folks on the other side of the plane crawl over you to take pictures. Besides, I would love to read your review of the Druk biz lounge upon your departure from Paro.

    Make sure to have an Indian visa so you’re not stuck in case of diversion. If the plane can’t land in Paro, it will likely go to Bagdogra in Darjeeling.

    For an introduction to the non-western, otherworldliness of Bhutan, pick up a copy of Russ and Blyth Carpenter’s book The Blessings of Bhutan. It will seem goofy at first, but it shares many insights that make Bhutan more accessible from a cultural perspective.

  31. be sure to have some churpi (yak milk cheese) … there are a couple of different types and the softer one is delicious.

  32. @Lucky,
    One is so happy that you are taking the time to visit Bhutan. I’ve been traveling annually since 1998 and have marveled that despite all of the changes over the years it is still truly amazing. In 98 Druk Air seat assignments were based on weight. There was a scale at the gate. Step on the scale, get your seat assignment. Depending the schedule, you’ll either be on an AB319 or an ATR. Regardless, get a left hand window seat on the way from Kathmandu to Paro. It’s only a 45 minute flight but oh what a view. Spring is the best time for mountain viewing but it is also the driest season so the hillsides are not as green than in the fall. If you’re interested, I’ve posted a few years back a cockpit video on my YouTube channel taken from a Drukair AB319 test flight from Paro to Kathmandu. There’s an altitude change, Paro is at 6k feet so be prepared for that. Make sure that you take a day to visit Taktsang in Paro (1KM from my cottage) but also make your guide doesn’t take you straight away for a Taktsang hike upon arrival. It’s an easier hike nowadays but it is tiring which tends to taint the rest of one’s stay if done on the first day. Visit the Kirchu Monastery and light some butter lamps for your family and friends. Le Meridien in Paro is south of the town on the river. With your SPG status you’ll probably get a top floor corner room. If possible choose the northern one as one can watch the aircraft on their final approaches when they come in from the south or watch them climb on departure. Food in Paro is a mixed bag but there are lots of coffee shops sprouting up on the Main Street with lots of good eats. For drinks, you must try some ara. It’s like sake but better. For beer, try some Red Panda or if you want to get sloshed, a Druk 1000. For souvenirs, etc. in Paro, there’s lots of shops selling essentially the same stuff but I would recommend a small tailor shop located near the central fountain north of the BT office. This elderly tailor makes the most amazing items that have wow’d my friends and family for years. The Le’ Mederien in Thimphu is smack dab in the middle of Thimphu located a few hundred feet from the main intersection on Norzi Lam. Make sure to take a quick video of the traffic cop at the intersection. If you have the time, ask you guide to schedule a trip to Dochula Pass. It’s a 1/2 day trip up & back but the vistas are amazing. Go early in the morning for the best views. For food in Thimphu, the hotel food is okay for breakfast but for lunch one cannot beat the Business lunch special at the Druk Hotel. There’s a good Korean restaurant located at the circle at the top of Norzi Lam if that suits your fancy. However two items you MUST consume while in Bhutan. Momo’s & Emma Dhatse. Momos are essentially Bhutanese dumplings and Emma Dhatse is the national dish. Chilis are a vegetable in Bhutan. The way I describe Emma Dhatse to friends is chilis alfredo with the alfredo sauce made from farmers cheese. (They do make Westerners versions) For photos in Thimphu, go visit the Buddha hill on the east and perhaps take a drive up to Telecomm hill on the west. Also please visit the National Chorten taking the time to walk clockwise around the chorten and observer the folks. It is an amazing Kingdom full of wonderful souls. Outbound out of Paro, I always choose a right hand side window because you get a great view of the Haa valley. Dhaka is only 40 minutes so little in flight service. Dhaka is Dhaka. Good luck. Enjoy your 1st journey to the Kingdom in the Clouds! pm me if you have any questions. I’d be glad to assist….

  33. @SKF There are five Ammans in Bhutan. More than any other country. Ammans are consistent regardless of the nation and are a fantastic experience. Only the scenery changes. Having stayed at all 5 Ammans in Bhutan which are all truly wonderful, its better to venture out from the Amman cocoon when visiting Bhutan.

  34. Too many comments to read (so don’t know if this has been said), but our biggest surprise was that Tuesday is their holy day, and everything is shut down. It was very difficult even to find a small store open to buy a few small souvenirs. And the food is VERY spicy!

  35. Ben, is it possible for you to travel Singapore Airlines Business Class? I know you travel Singapore a lot on Suites, but the last time we saw an SQ business review from you was in 2012 (remind me if I’m wrong) and that was their regional product, not their flat bed long-haul product you’ll see on a USA-Singapore flight (Singapore – Kathmandu/Dhaka have regional business products on board).

    Thanks, and hope you try it out again!

  36. I second @Drukyulgoods. I spent almost two years working in Bhutan for Amankora, and the experience was eye opening and unforgettable. Momos and ema datsi are a must. Do make a trip to Punakha (where the dzongkha is worth a trip) and Gangtey (it’s so serene!). One note is that if you have your own car, you can customize your trip the way you want it with your travel agent, as long as you arrange it before your arrival into the country. PM me if you have questions.

  37. an additional reading recommendation I would include is Treasures of the Thunder Dragon: A Portrait of Bhutan by Ashi Dorji Wangmo Wangchuck who is one of the former queens (the previous king had 4 wives – all sisters). It’s a charming memoir about her life and walks across Bhutan.

    I also found Bhutan: Himalayan Mountian Kingdon by Francoise Pommaret to be an excellent guidebook filled with lots of history and insights. The edition I have is slightly out of date, but it appears to be the most recent one published.

  38. @Dani, I remember you. Hello from a former frequent visitor to Richen Ling. The lodge is now a middle school for girls but Phub is still around. Small world connected by the Kingdom in the Clouds.
    Best Wishes La,
    @Drukyulgoods

  39. Ben, I’ll just underline the comment from @ptahcha above. Bring USD cash with you. I wasn’t thinking and landed in the country with about $200 on me, and hit up the ATMs at three different banks, trying with a few different debit/credit cards, and all were duds. At the last one, I tried my last card (a Visa) and bing, I was in business. Cash would have been easier, however.

    I understand the guides and drivers rely heavily on tips.

    Tigers Nest is necessary – and gorgeous – but indeed it was the only part of the country that felt really touristy.

    Finally, insist on eating the same meal as your guide/driver at some point… it’ll be a (super hot) chili and cheese dish, often with rice. I enjoyed it, but it is so so hot.

  40. The tourist tariff system is new. Earlier they used to have a hard limit of tourist visas 500 or 1000 a year. One piece of advice. Avoid Biman. My wife flew it from India to Indonesia via Dacca and she says it was the worst flight she ever took and Dacca was the worst airport she has ever had a stopover at. The Priority Pass lounge actually throws you out after 2 hours -not even offering to pay works.

  41. How are you working the Le Meridian with your travel agency? Are you just booking it and they provide the food, guide etc.? I am planning a trip and was intrigued by the discounted tariff but wasn’t sure where that fit into my tour. I know you can’t just book the hotel and pay the tariff and go around by yourself, there has to be a guide involved.

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